Curse

Winterclaw · Dec 17, 2008, 03:53 AM // 03:53

I'm starting to think now would be a good time, for awhile anyways, to nerf [shadow form] so it can't be maintained. However, I don't think that would be enough. As I see it, SF needed to be nerfed largely because it is too good; if you didn't have factions and weren't an A/E or E/A you were SOL. But I also think that it would be bad for what's left of the GW economy if it isn't replaced.

Basically more SF equals cheaper things because the more and faster we can farm, the quicker we can get all those nice items.

So here's what I'd like to propose besides a second SF:
1. Change some mobs in a few NM and HM zones so other classes can solo farm. Note Anet doesn't have to say how... maybe a few people can put their heads together, figure out some solo builds for each class and design the mobs around it. Maybe tweak the AI as well; it'd be really nice if HM was hard because the mobs had well designed builds and knew how to play them and not because they cheat.
2. Edit a few skills PvE version with farming in mind. For example, make [mist form] protect against things like touchs, physical interrupts, and conditions applied from attacks. Maybe buff a few warrior tactics stances in PvE. Maybe make it so that distortion doesn't make you lose energy with each dodge but have it last for 10 seconds or 4...10 attacks. These are just some basic ideas to get the ball rolling and are not to quoted as actual suggestions.
3. Improve hero AI and try to create a few areas where people need a partner or a hero to farm a spot.
4. Change drops and droprates as needed.

dasmitchies · Dec 17, 2008, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Dude we are losing players with these PVE "balance" nerfs. Lost players in GW is the primary reason the in game economy is falling. Shadowform breathed some life into the economy for a short time, but ectos FELL in price after the nerf. Now I understand why so many economists get frustrated with the general populace. Less demand = smaller prices. Falling wages = less demand. More grind = more quitters. MANY people quit after the Ursan nerf. Ectos went up by about only 1k due to that and leveled off. However, decreasing supply can only inflate prices so much and is countered by those who quit (lessening demand) due to their favorite builds being crushed and the daunting task of filling their HOM without those builds. As long as GW2 is vaporware and PVE shows diminishing rewards due to nerfs people will find other games. You should track this for a sociology class and write a paper. Right now you are witnessing firsthand the decline of a civilization and the stressors that accelerate the rate of decline. ANET fails at balance so quit cheering them on.

sideeffect · Dec 17, 2008, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Seriously, stop whining about the skills. The game is bad enough as it is. Let Anet decide what they need to the game, not the community.

Arkantos · Dec 17, 2008, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by sideeffect

Seriously, stop whining about the skills. The game is bad enough as it is. Let Anet decide what they need to the game, not the community.

It's an online game, of course the community is going to give their suggestions. If the community didn't give ANet any suggestions/their opinion since day 1, this game would most likely be shittier than it currently is.

Anyways, all ANet has to do is change it to before it got the buff. It was usable, but not maintainable. Why ANet hasn't done this is beyond me. I guess they think invincibility is good.

Sharkman · Dec 17, 2008, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Sounds like someone is sad because their ele can't maintain shadow form anymore? I personally would rather have more money worth less than less money worth more, makes me feel bttr. Anyway, a massive overhaul of some of the areas like you are suggesting is out of the question.

Forgotton200 · Dec 17, 2008, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmitchies

Dude we are losing players with these PVE "balance" nerfs. Lost players in GW is the primary reason the in game economy is falling. Shadowform breathed some life into the economy for a short time, but ectos FELL in price after the nerf. Now I understand why so many economists get frustrated with the general populace. Less demand = smaller prices. Falling wages = less demand. More grind = more quitters. MANY people quit after the Ursan nerf. Ectos went up by about only 1k due to that and leveled off. However, decreasing supply can only inflate prices so much and is countered by those who quit (lessening demand) due to their favorite builds being crushed and the daunting task of filling their HOM without those builds. As long as GW2 is vaporware and PVE shows diminishing rewards due to nerfs people will find other games. You should track this for a sociology class and write a paper. Right now you are witnessing firsthand the decline of a civilization and the stressors that accelerate the rate of decline. ANET fails at balance so quit cheering them on.

After reading this, I realized SF needs a nerf.

Edit: Basically, you want invincible mode or else you think everyone will quit. Wrong. Try learn to not suck and you won't need invincible to do PvE.

You hate grinding? Then quit mmorpg.
It takes too long? Then quit farming.
"But but but..." Stfu.

P.S. Quit.

Eragon Zarroc · Dec 17, 2008, 05:50 AM // 05:50

SF has been nerfed to the point where it is only good for a handful of things now and it takes slightly more skill due to energy management issues. It's been nerfed down twice since it's original buff. if ur going to make it unmaintainable, it is worse off from it's original before even being buffed. either leave it like it is in near shambles or put it back to its old function. you don't nerf a buffed skill three times. twice is bad enough -_- three times goes over the edge saying, " i'm a moron and can't fix my mistake despite many attempts" anet wouldn't want to look like that would they? NO! OF COURSE NOT!....right.... anyways, simply put, retarded to nerf it a 3RD time.....

madriel222 · Dec 17, 2008, 06:47 AM // 06:47

I wouldn't know how exactly, but I do believe that Shadow Form needs to be fundamentally changed. Anet has already set a precedence for this, and I think it would be redundant for many players to go over those instances (there are a few examples in even the latest update). This skill, as it is now, is begging to be abused for the sake of farming or running in PvE. That's all it's good for; there are no combat implications for Shadow Form. What if we just changed it's nature, change what Shadow Form is "meant" for? Kanaxai, I think, gives us a great model with Nightmare Refuge. Don't take the whole skill, by any means, but perhaps something involving a ~50% chance of attacks AND spells failing for a time while still being a removable enchantment. Just a thought.

Bong Bro Zac · Dec 17, 2008, 07:59 AM // 07:59

i think SF should be nerfed... what is all i see in ToPK and ToA? sins. its having the same effects that ursan had, except this is proffession specific which makes it ALOT worse imo.

gremlin · Dec 17, 2008, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Its the game balance that needs looking at.

It is simply pointless to buff and nerf skills without considering the rest of the game.
Originally the alterations came about to address pvp game imbalances which was the right thing to do.
Then to fix problems caused by players finding pve exploits they are altered again in an almost endless pattern of change to fix everything.

Sadly I think they forgot the Ai part of the game, the Bosses and Mobs needed a radical overhaul to keep up with skill aterations.
If someone can easily farm an area with a set of skills one option is to alter the skills so it becomes less easy to do so.
You could also look at who and what is being farmed and alter the mob composition size and skills to do the same thing.

Not altering the skills the players use quite so often would provide a little stability Changes a couple of times a year is enough change for us to get used to.
Adding a couple of extra creatures into the farming area with skills that negate the farming build is imo a better solution that changing the problem skill parameters.

Phantom Flux · Dec 17, 2008, 10:53 AM // 10:53

/unsigned. HELL FREAKIN' NO!!

I'm not a huge fan of the perma build, but the perma build that includes SF is what helped build a better rep and better acceptance into teams.

A long time ago, sins were thought to as really, really shit cause the majority of bad players that happened to be Naruto fans unsed them.

Sins were at the bottom of the chain near the terribly played and always dying Dervish.

NO NO! Sins have already been too weak to consider nerfing.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 17, 2008, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I'm starting to think now would be a good time, for awhile anyways, to nerf [shadow form] so it can't be maintained. However, I don't think that would be enough. As I see it, SF needed to be nerfed largely because it is too good; if you didn't have factions and weren't an A/E or E/A you were SOL. But I also think that it would be bad for what's left of the GW economy if it isn't replaced.

Basically more SF equals cheaper things because the more and faster we can farm, the quicker we can get all those nice items.

So here's what I'd like to propose besides a second SF:
1. Change some mobs in a few NM and HM zones so other classes can solo farm. Note Anet doesn't have to say how... maybe a few people can put their heads together, figure out some solo builds for each class and design the mobs around it. Maybe tweak the AI as well; it'd be really nice if HM was hard because the mobs had well designed builds and knew how to play them and not because they cheat.
2. Edit a few skills PvE version with farming in mind. For example, make [mist form] protect against things like touchs, physical interrupts, and conditions applied from attacks. Maybe buff a few warrior tactics stances in PvE. Maybe make it so that distortion doesn't make you lose energy with each dodge but have it last for 10 seconds or 4...10 attacks. These are just some basic ideas to get the ball rolling and are not to quoted as actual suggestions.
3. Improve hero AI and try to create a few areas where people need a partner or a hero to farm a spot.
4. Change drops and droprates as needed.

The issue is less Shadow Form, and more just farming in general. It is plenty easy to get things with no farming at all. But people just have to have things right not - that is the issue. It is society's mental thought. Rush rush rush, so you can "save time" because "time is money" etc etc more bullshit here more crap there. Because people "rush" they farm. Farming on a wide scale means that prices will decrease due to more supply. The economy was bad from the start, with money and items coming out of no where, and going into no where. There needs to be a set number of items (1 of a green per 10 people, 50 ectos per person) and when said item gets removes (via selling to a merchant, buying armor, or just trashing) it gets put back under monsters. This would keep prices at a stable number and as such the economy would be balanced.

At least, it would be more balanced than now, which can have a million ectos per person, leaving their price at 10g once that number is reached.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmitchies

Dude we are losing players with these PVE "balance" nerfs. Lost players in GW is the primary reason the in game economy is falling. Shadowform breathed some life into the economy for a short time, but ectos FELL in price after the nerf. Now I understand why so many economists get frustrated with the general populace. Less demand = smaller prices. Falling wages = less demand. More grind = more quitters. MANY people quit after the Ursan nerf. Ectos went up by about only 1k due to that and leveled off. However, decreasing supply can only inflate prices so much and is countered by those who quit (lessening demand) due to their favorite builds being crushed and the daunting task of filling their HOM without those builds. As long as GW2 is vaporware and PVE shows diminishing rewards due to nerfs people will find other games. You should track this for a sociology class and write a paper. Right now you are witnessing firsthand the decline of a civilization and the stressors that accelerate the rate of decline. ANET fails at balance so quit cheering them on.

1) I think you are pulling this out of your butt. Stop.

2) Ectos fell in price after the nerf because people thought the price would skyrocket due to becoming harder to get. As such, people bought ectos, raising the price, and when people saw that, dozens upon dozens sold their ectos, ending up making the supply higher.

The real decrease in ectos came from the SF buff, not the nerf.

3) Ursan was like a monkey throwing shit at enemies and killing them from the smell. No game to it. It needed to be nerfed, if people leave just because they can't have their easy button (literally, one button) then they need to grow some balls.

4) "Right now you are witnessing firsthand the decline of a civilization" lmfao. Since when is the GW community a "civilization?"

[Morkai] · Dec 17, 2008, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bong Bro Zac

i think SF should be nerfed... what is all i see in ToPK and ToA? sins. its having the same effects that ursan had, except this is proffession specific which makes it ALOT worse imo.

And Usran wasn't proffession specific after like what a month?

Anyways SF does need a nerf, as do spells in the Earth Magic line that allow roughly the same invincibility.

Forgotton200 · Dec 17, 2008, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

The issue is less Shadow Form, and more just farming in general. It is plenty easy to get things with no farming at all. But people just have to have things right not - that is the issue. It is society's mental thought. Rush rush rush, so you can "save time" because "time is money" etc etc more bullshit here more crap there. Because people "rush" they farm. Farming on a wide scale means that prices will decrease due to more supply. The economy was bad from the start, with money and items coming out of no where, and going into no where. There needs to be a set number of items (1 of a green per 10 people, 50 ectos per person) and when said item gets removes (via selling to a merchant, buying armor, or just trashing) it gets put back under monsters. This would keep prices at a stable number and as such the economy would be balanced.

At least, it would be more balanced than now, which can have a million ectos per person, leaving their price at 10g once that number is reached.

1) I think you are pulling this out of your butt. Stop.

2) Ectos fell in price after the nerf because people thought the price would skyrocket due to becoming harder to get. As such, people bought ectos, raising the price, and when people saw that, dozens upon dozens sold their ectos, ending up making the supply higher.

The real decrease in ectos came from the SF buff, not the nerf.

3) Ursan was like a monkey throwing shit at enemies and killing them from the smell. No game to it. It needed to be nerfed, if people leave just because they can't have their easy button (literally, one button) then they need to grow some balls.

4) "Right now you are witnessing firsthand the decline of a civilization" lmfao. Since when is the GW community a "civilization?"

You already answered that question yourself.

Quote:

1) I think you are pulling this out of your butt. Stop.

I lol'd so hard reading his posts.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 17, 2008, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

You already answered that question yourself.

The human race is a civilization composed of several civilizations (countries are what they are called at this point in time). The GW community is a community. Made from various portions of already existing civilizations. An "Inter-civilization community" if you will.

Not a civilization on itself.

Guild Wars might have an "economy" but it cannot be self-sustaining. Only Anet makes money, no one else. Without the affects of the real civilizations - whichever we belong to - our community would not even exist, let alone survive.

the_jos · Dec 17, 2008, 12:07 PM // 12:07

I don't see a reason to nerf SF anymore.
Would we go back in time to the moment that PUG was still an option for teaming I would.
But in general, PUG died a long time ago and it's not only because of skill/class/rank discrimination.
Now SF is just a gimmic that allows players to do things solo. And the funny thing about this is that one of the best 'solo' farms is done with 8 players in a team.

Nerfing a specific farming spot isn't that hard, just put some no-spell or untargeted disenchantments in an area. Should slow the farm down while still enabling players to win if they are smart.
But A-net chooses to do otherwise.

One reason could be that the economic influence of ecto isn't that huge.
Remember, an ecto has a core value of 100g, the premium is there because players think it's worth more. Each ecto that is farmed only adds 100g to the economy.
The same for the end-chest weapons. Their trade value might be 100K+ but their core value is most probably not over 500g. Players farming ecto and those weapons are far better than players farming merchant items and cash, which has a far greater impact on the amount of gold in the game. And lootscaling solved part of that problem ages ago.

Should there be other farming alternatives on the same level as SF?
I think that might be a good idea. But I think there are alternatives and SF is just the PUG flavor of the month.

MirkoTeran · Dec 17, 2008, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

After reading this, I realized SF needs a nerf.

Edit: Basically, you want invincible mode or else you think everyone will quit. Wrong. Try learn to not suck and you won't need invincible to do PvE.

You hate grinding? Then quit mmorpg.
It takes too long? Then quit farming.
"But but but..." Stfu.

P.S. Quit.

This is perfect. No need to write more.

tcratty · Dec 17, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

if you cant beat pve without sf you have more problems then anyone can help you with and sf needs to die forever

Shadowmoon · Dec 17, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Should there be other farming alternatives on the same level as SF?
I think that might be a good idea. But I think there are alternatives and SF is just the PUG flavor of the month.

600/smite monk
i actually make alot more money with this than with a perma sin, you just need to know what to do with it.

Scary · Dec 17, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmitchies

Dude we are losing players with these PVE "balance" nerfs. Lost players in GW is the primary reason the in game economy is falling. Shadowform breathed some life into the economy for a short time, but ectos FELL in price after the nerf. Now I understand why so many economists get frustrated with the general populace. Less demand = smaller prices. Falling wages = less demand. More grind = more quitters. MANY people quit after the Ursan nerf. Ectos went up by about only 1k due to that and leveled off. However, decreasing supply can only inflate prices so much and is countered by those who quit (lessening demand) due to their favorite builds being crushed and the daunting task of filling their HOM without those builds. As long as GW2 is vaporware and PVE shows diminishing rewards due to nerfs people will find other games. You should track this for a sociology class and write a paper. Right now you are witnessing firsthand the decline of a civilization and the stressors that accelerate the rate of decline. ANET fails at balance so quit cheering them on.

No more coment on that,

Jeeese why are there so much Idiots that always want to kill PvE by nerf the
few good things.

Go live in a hut on a far lonly field idiot